Leading with Vulnerability: From the Courtroom to the Community

Kyle McEntee:

We're joined today by Judge Alex Manning, a judge at the Superior Court of Fulton County in Atlanta, Georgia. Law is a second career for you, maybe even a third, and before you were a judge or even a lawyer, you served in the military, and then you spent nearly 15 years in law enforcement working on investigations. What made you decide you wanted to pursue a career in law?

Alex Manning:

I realized as a cop that you only got to take cases so far. You got to arrest people, and then you had no more input, and then went to the prosecutor's office, and they decided whether or not they were going to try it, and if they dismissed it, you didn't know why. And if it went through, then you're like, wait a minute, this person sitting in this black robe up there only knows this.

They don't know all this other stuff, hearsay, etc. I got to where I wanted to see it through, being able to handle cases, criminal, civil, anything like that, and had the biggest impact, and really be able to contribute to see what I could do and contribute to the community.

Kyle McEntee:

So a lot of the work you were doing in law enforcement was investigations. What kind of investigative work were you doing?

Alex Manning:

So I was a GBI agent, and I worked undercover for several years, and then it seems like if it's a woman, you always get put in crimes against women and children. I worked tons of those, and homicides.

Kyle McEntee:

So what did you like about the work so much?

Alex Manning:

When people call the cops, it's usually because they're in trouble. Nobody really calls them because they like them, just like a lawyer, but it's those few times where you can actually help somebody. There's a child involved, or domestic violence, and you're helping someone and holding someone accountable at the same time, and it may not be the same person.

Kyle McEntee:

There's a lot of overlap in that kind of sensibility with your first job out of law school, which was as a staff attorney for the Superior Court of Paulding County, a small county just west of Atlanta. What were your responsibilities in that position?

Alex Manning:

Wrote orders for the judge, got a calendar together, went over orders with the judge, cases, handled motions, everything that he didn't want to do.

Kyle McEntee:

So you really got to see the courtroom dynamics early.

Alex Manning:

Yeah, yeah. I would sit in the courtroom a lot, and you would know when he had a question, I was looking up something, so I'd have my laptop, and I could send him a case real quick.

Kyle McEntee:

Following that, you transitioned to private practice, focusing on complex criminal defense. In your staff attorney position, you were seeing the whole wide world of legal cases. Why did you decide to focus on criminal defense in this practice?

Alex Manning:

I really felt like I could make an impact. I'd been a cop, and I'd seen, not necessarily the ones I personally worked with, not make some really good decisions. So I saw some people kind of come victim to the system just by what they are. Maybe some of the people were being sloppy, and that goes all the way up the line. So I thought, well, you know, I can do it. I used to train cops. I was an instructor, so I trained them. And it's not that I wanted to beat them or get this person off. It's that if I show them on the other side stuff they did wrong, they won't make that mistake again.

Kyle McEntee:

And that leads to better outcomes in all kinds of ways, right? Fewer people prosecuted for things they didn't do, and more people prosecuted for the things that they did do. What inspired you to move from practicing law to becoming a judge?

Alex Manning:

A lot of my friends now that I've worked with at the DA's office are on the bench. So like a part-time position came open. And when you're in private practice, you got to make money. You got to do what you can do. So I would take a lot of pro bono cases to try to, you know, sometimes you'd meet other clients, or your name would get out there. And I was on some appointed lists in some of the metro counties.

So a friend of mine was one of the magistrate judges. She came up and said, “hey, you want some part-time work?” Absolutely. She said, “don't you want to know what it pays?” No, it pays. That's good. Because you get big cases when you're doing criminal defense. I mean, I had some really big cases, but all of them aren't big, you know. So I just did what I had to do to make money.

Kyle McEntee:

Yeah, I feel like a lot of the smaller crimes are making $300 a pop at best.

Alex Manning:

Right, right. Yeah. I made enough to eat, but the other stuff made enough to like pay my paralegal, pay overhead, stuff like that.

Kyle McEntee:

So you became a magistrate judge, and that was a part-time role. You were still in private practice at the same time though?

Alex Manning:

Right. I just couldn't practice in the county that I was sitting.

Kyle McEntee:

So how did that work?

Alex Manning:

Took cases in all the outer counties, as opposed to Fulton County. And it was a little bit of an advantage because when we go to functions, I got to meet other judges in the other counties. So you kind of got to know them off the bench. And I think they kind of got to know you, not that they're going to be favoritism or whatnot. But I think then when you walked in their courtroom, maybe if they didn't take you so serious before, maybe they give you a little bit more respect. Just that little edge of, okay, you've been in front of me. I know, or I know what you're doing, or I've watched you. I've been in your courtroom. I know what you do.

Kyle McEntee:

Do you feel like there's a gender dynamic to that, that like maybe it was a little extra necessary for you as a woman in an old boys club?

Alex Manning:

Well, I mean, that started out when I was a cop. We were like four of us women in the GBI. Now, I don't like rest on that, that that's it. But I think it is. I mean, I learned from it when I was a cop and anything you are. My spouse is Asian. And I didn't realize until she told me, she says, do you know that I'm sometimes the only one in the room? And I think she's had to try a little bit harder to make her way. So it's a little more, you got to stand up and show people.

I've had an opposing attorney once tell a judge, yeah, judge, we're ready. If we can just wait for opposing counsel, talking about the guy that I was trying the case with. And I stood up and said, judge, I'd like to remind him that I am a member of the bar. So the judge kind of covered his mouth, started laughing. And then he was like, you know what? I want Alex Manning Esquire to come on. I was like, yeah, get those little digs.

Kyle McEntee:

So you mentioned your wife and she practices law as well. Do you find it is nice to be able to go home to someone who kind of understands what you've been going through? Or does that actually backfire a little bit because y'all are both had that lawyer brain?

Alex Manning:

She's a staff attorney for another judge. So you kind of try to vent a little bit and try to leave it alone. Because if not, it does backfire. She'd be like, why did you make that decision? And then if it would be you, a staff attorney, I'd be like, I don't know. What do you think? But when it's her, I'm like, why am I wrong? You get more like, wait, am I wrong? Do you not agree? Should I have done something else? And she's just asking like anybody else would. So it kind of depends on your day. You're like, what? What? The judge you work with, is it different? Is it different than I do? But it is good sometimes because you can talk about things that you don't necessarily have to explain.

Kyle McEntee:

All right. So you were at the time a magistrate part-time and working full-time as a criminal defense lawyer, and now you're a full-time judge. So how did you make that transition?What gets you on the bench in Fulton County full-time?

Alex Manning:

That's a loaded question. So the other superior court judges, they've got a thing that's called like a judicial officer. They swore me in a sitting, which I could sit by designation anybody sworn in as a magistrate. So there's a family division where you handle family cases, domestic violence, child support, divorces, anything like that. And a couple of them approached me and said, hey, we got this opening and we're starting to do it. We need a position to do five days a week. You'll be solely responsible for these cases. This is your calendar. I was like, huh. Okay. Five days a week. Sounds pretty good.

So I would sign, do electronic warrants stuff at night, sign search warrants, arrest warrants, stuff like that from like 6 PM to 6 AM. And I'd go to work and work all day. You may finish at five, you may finish at four, but I was usually tired. So I'd try to finish at two, you know, and did that. And during COVID we had the Orca calendar. So I was working during the day and then I would work at criminal cases at night, like night court. And I think, show people you can work, you know, and I liked what I did.

Kyle McEntee:

So how many hours a week were you working?

Alex Manning:

I'd say probably 60 plus.

Kyle McEntee:

Wow.

Alex Manning:

I like to go over my calendars and prep them and know, anybody's ever seen it, I write all kinds of notes on there. So, so that when I look down, I can say, oh, so it was at this address instead of me saying, what address was it at? So I try to be really prepared and know all the details about my case at night.

Kyle McEntee:

Right now are you working nights also, or is it just daytime at this point?

Alex Manning:

No, I'm working daytime. I mean, it's funny because so many of the cops know my address because during COVID, you know, so I'll get calls from cops and stuff at night and they'll come to my house and want me to sign a warrant or sign a search warrant because when they call in on electronic warrant application, it may be a really long wait. So they'll say, we really need this because this person's in a house. So I'll say, come on over. And they come on over and I sometimes invite them in, sometimes sit there on the front porch and go over the warrant with it, sign it and send them on their way. But I mostly work during the day.

Kyle McEntee:

How many of those are you doing a week?

Alex Manning:

Some stuff goes in phases. I think I had three people come over this weekend, just call them like, are you doing anything? I'm like, yeah, I'm just kind of sitting by the pool, but you know, come on. So they came on over.

Kyle McEntee:

It feels like straight out of a TV show, coming up to the judge at the pool with the warrant request, you saying, yeah, sure, let's, let's see what you got.

Alex Manning:

Yeah. Cause you know, back when I was a cop, the dispatcher would have to call the judge at home and wake them up and you'd just be petrified knocking on the door and come on in and you woke them up. I'm like, Oh God. You know? So yeah, it's kind of like back in the olden days. I've had them find me a restaurant. I'm like, I'm over here. I'm at a friend's house and they'll come over. They want it that bad.

Kyle McEntee:

Can you explain why it's so time-sensitive?

Alex Manning:

The ones that they come and see me for could be something they have a wanted person inside of house and they need something quickly because if they sign on and wait on the on-call magistrate judge, sometimes it could, they could wait an hour. Depends on how busy they are. So if there's wanted people, search warrants, if they got to get in the car really quick, they need some information on the cell phone tower, stuff like that. Some cell phone companies, there's just some things that are pretty urgent.

Kyle McEntee:

It really highlights just how interconnected the entire justice system is and why moving from law enforcement into the law in this capacity, it's kind of just like a natural segue.

Alex Manning:

I understand what they're going through. So it would be funny when I would be on EWI and it's electronic screen pops up and you can see a little bit like Zoom and they'd be talking, trying to get a warrant for something. And I'm like, well, this isn't necessarily positioned with the intent. Maybe you need to look at this. And they said, well, you don't know what it's like. I was like, okay.

Kyle McEntee:

Let me tell you what it's like.

Alex Manning:

Let me tell you what it's like. I did it for 15 years. So yes, I do know what it's like. So you're getting it right. Cause I'm not signing this.

Kyle McEntee:

Yeah. So you have the confidence because you've been there, but there's other places you haven't. Where do you get the confidence to kind of use that judge voice when you don't have prior experience?

Alex Manning:

I think it's just, I don't know, honestly, I think only get it because I've looked at whatever cases in front of me so much and I've beaten it like a dead horse. Of course, I have my wife over there telling me, well, why don't you look at it this way? So when something comes in front of me, I've got it. And then you start seeing a little bit more of the same thing, just a little tweak. So, I mean, the first couple of times that I was on the bench and somebody objected, I froze like, what, what, you know? So I know a couple of things. I know what I know. I know what I don't know. And I'm not scared to admit. I don't know. Step off the bench. Give me a second. I'll be right back. I may go back in the back and shaking cause I'm scared. I'm like, oh my gosh, what if I make a mistake?

And I am afraid of making mistakes. I don't want them because it costs people their livelihood. They can go to jail. They can lose their kids, tons of stuff. There's a lot on the line. So I think at first I was super scared, but now I'm thinking I'm feeling a little more confident because I can, I've got my stride.

Kyle McEntee:

All right. So when you hit pause for a second and you go back in the chambers, you're shaking a little bit. You're unsure. You got to go get sure. What are you doing to get that certainty that you can then go back in the courtroom, have confidence, deliver your decision? What is that research process like?

Alex Manning:

I'll bounce it off a staff attorney that's been sitting there with me. Obviously sit there and do my Superman pose to get my strength back up, you know, take a couple of deep breaths. And if I can talk out loud what I'm thinking as opposed to having to think it and just make a decision.

So if I can bounce it off a couple of people and they're like, okay, and it's nothing for me to call another judge and say, Hey, have you ever had this? And we all do that. You know, I think probably the better judges do that. And I'll call, I'll ask some people, I'll look at some of the cases they've cited. And sometimes it takes a few minutes. I'm like, all right, you guys go and take a break, be back in 15 minutes. And sometimes I can just go back there. I say it out loud, what's happened and kind of just walk through it. I can come up with something, but I am, I'm still nervous every day. I'm still, I think you've always, at least I do always worry that I'm going to make the wrong decision.

Kyle McEntee:

Have you made any wrong decisions? Do you think, or is it tough to know like immediately that it's wrong?

Alex Manning:

Well, so there's a wrong decision. There's the court of appeals and stuff that says you're wrong. Probably have. I hope it hasn't been a detrimental thing. And at least the appellate courts have caught it and kicked it back down. Some of my biggest fears is when I do my domestic violence cases and you've got the petitioner who's scared, he or she, you know, stuff is happening. And when I make this decision, I tell the respondent slash defendant, okay, you can have no further contact with them. I look at it psychologically, I'm thinking two things. Sometimes they're mad at me, but a lot of times they're more mad at the one who's seeking the protective order, the petitioner. And I just hope that they realize that they may think that you just made them lose their job. You've made this happen, but it's not you. I made that decision, but I mean, I've gotten threats and stuff like that, but I worry about that.

For 10 years, since I've been doing the protective orders, there's been six people that have been killed. And one, a guy was obsessed with this lady. He died. She did not. And he was really obsessed and stalking her. And he ended up going, strapping a bomb to his self, trying to climb up the building where she was at. Luckily, she wasn't there. And just as he was down there, it blew up. So it just blew him up. And it was around Halloween. And I remember watching the news and I was like, that address. So I called a buddy of mine, it was the FBI. And I said, did that happen at this address? He said, yeah, how do you know? I said, you probably need to look into this. I said, I think I may know who you got there.

So, and I've had one where a petitioner said, okay, I'm not mad at you anymore. Come home and she's killed the guy. Some of those things, it's bad for me to watch the news because I'll run, check my computer. Who, you know, oh my God, is that somebody that was in front of me? Did I not do what I should have done? Should I have said something else? So that worries me.

Kyle McEntee:

So you had experience as an investigator, as we've discussed, how do you see those instincts affecting you in the courtroom?

Alex Manning:

I listen very carefully. And I know all judges listen carefully, but, you know, I kind of lean in, I'm listening to every single word they say, because I'm looking at what's in front of me and more. I'm probably extra hard on the state, you know, and the officers or whatever, they're in there because I'm like, why did you do that? Why didn't you do it this way? Or why is this missing?

A lot of them I know, unlike a lot of the judges, I know them. It's kind of hard when you know people and they come in front of you and you're like, oh, you're not doing so well. It's just tough.

Kyle McEntee:

How do you deal with like knowing that there's just different ways to do things sometimes where there's like not a right or wrong versus like calling out when something is like by the books incorrect and therefore inadmissible.

Alex Manning:

The mental gymnastics that you do. And I do have to parse it out sometimes, especially when someone's like, “that's how I was trained.” No, you weren't. I've had one say, “that's how I was trained.” I said, “really? Where did you learn that? Because I taught you that class.” I try to hold people at a higher standard in both defense and prosecutor. I just think I really put a lot of thought into it, probably more than I should.

Believe it or not, I had a lot more gray hair than I had when I first started. And I carry a lot of it with me, but it's good to take care of mental health, self-care, stuff like that. Because, you know, a lot of judges, they don't talk to one another. We don't sit back in the back and discuss a case and how it maybe bothered us. I don't know. Maybe we think it's a sign of weakness.

Kyle McEntee:

Why do you think that is? Because other areas of law, we've talked to public defenders and prosecutors. They have their little small groups of people who really get it and they rely on each other. Why don't more judges rely on each other, at least the ones you're working around?

Alex Manning:

I think it's pretty safe to say there's just not a lot. I mean, they're coming out a little bit more. But first of all, you know, you can't go to any of the lawyers because you can't talk about cases. And if you say something and you're going to come in front of them, you may be, oh, Judge Manning said this the other day and he hold it against me. So then you have that secluded job as a judge. And I don't know. I think maybe they think it shows that they're weak or they're stressing and they don't want to appear like that.

Kyle McEntee:

What about you? Why don't you go to your peers?

Alex Manning:

I've got a couple that I do go to because I was like, what is this? I said, I don't get it. I mean, I need to talk to somebody because I can't always come home and put it on my wife who's heard stuff herself. And I'm coming at it from the view of the bench. They're starting to talk more about mental health through the bar and they're talking about it at judges meetings more. And I guess getting them to acknowledge that we need a safe place and to not come back and bite us in the rear.

Kyle McEntee:

Yeah, it kind of feels like it should be part of your judicial ethics to hold yourself accountable for your struggles.

Alex Manning:

I think every judge should have a therapist. And we've got a couple of therapists that I know some of the judges see who was a former attorney. So it's a little easier to go to a therapist that was a lawyer so they could get it. But yeah, it's a lot of pressure and not a lot of people. I mean, you get some judges that just come in, do their work and leave. You know, if you're in the parking garage, they don't even say hello. They just kind of walk past you and don't speak. And then you have some where downstairs in the parking lot, we'll just chat a little bit, you know, hang out with some of them socially. But yeah, some just really ball it up inside and you can tell you can tell. Usually if I got some buddies that have tough cases, I always just, you know, text them or walk by and I'm like, I'm just checking on you. How you doing? Fine. I'm fine. I'm like, okay, well, I'm here. If you need anything.

Kyle McEntee:

And you're hoping they'll do the same for you, right?

Alex Manning:

Yeah. Yeah. Because trust me, if something happens that there's a case in the public eye, judges can't respond. We can't say anything. So it's pretty tough when you got a case or something of yours that's in, and then you make your start second guessing yourself again, you know, and then sometimes all your friends scatter. You don't want to be involved in it. So it’s a little tough.

Kyle McEntee:

So when you're saying you've got a case in the public eye and you got to be silent, that also means you can't talk to other judges?

Alex Manning:

No, no. If you have like a high profile case and say the news comes out and reports on it, it's always somebody, why did the judge do this? Why did the judge do that? I don't have social media. Did before…and it was like, you read some of it and you're like, oh my God, I can't. Maybe I don't know. Maybe I don't know what I'm doing. I stay away from that, but it can really mess with you. So no, some of them won't talk about it, but some, like I said, we do. I mean, you know, I'll go over and I'll be like, man, this is a tough case. What do you think?

Kyle McEntee:

This is kind of related, but when you reflect on the people who are coming before you in court, how do you think about fairness and equity in your decision-making?

Alex Manning:

I honestly try to hear both sides as patient as I can, but especially if they're pro se people, self-represented, you know, there's always three sides to the story, their side, their side, and the truth. So I've got to get the truth. And sometimes I'll do domestic violence cases.

They come in, I say, I'm going to take judicial notice that everybody on this side of the courtroom says everybody on that side of the courtroom is lying. And everybody on this side of the courtroom says everybody on that side. So I don't want to hear they're lying.

Everybody thinks everybody's lying. And I got some good staff that puts me in check sometimes, you know, and some of it, I can relate to. Some of it, family or friends, and I can relate to. And, you know, people make mistakes. They've gotten in trouble. Now, some people keep making those mistakes or just not a mistake. It's a bad choice or bad decision. But, you know, I can usually see that there's some good or something in somebody that's in front of me.

Kyle McEntee:

Do you think it's a benefit or a detriment or both to see yourself in someone who's in front of you?

Alex Manning:

I think it's a little bit of both. I really just try to be real and try to be myself. Some people have this on-the-bench persona and this off-the-bench persona. And I'm just me. I'm approachable. I've had a lot of people come up and they go, you're a judge. You don't act like one. I'm like, what do they act like? What exactly do they act like? You know, I think I'm fair and I want to feel approachable. You get brand new attorneys, their first case, and they're shaking. They can't even read the piece of paper they have in front of them. I'm like, just relax. It's okay. I've been there.

Kyle McEntee:

It's interesting. You mentioned very early on in this interview that you wanted to get into law because you wanted to do more. And what you're describing right now is a good example of that from you're wanting judges to open up more with each other. You want to kind of mentor from a distance these new lawyers who are intimidated by the court, by you, by the pomp and circumstance of it all, even if it's on Zoom. So these judges, you play a role in the community just by a virtue of your status. Is that role something that comes naturally to you?

Alex Manning:

I guess. I don't know because it's a big status thing. Some judges may think that. The folks that I know would try to be down to earth because one choice, one decision, one day, one split second, that could have been you or somebody that you care about. Doing the crime, being the victim of the crime, what have you. And I like to hear everything.

Kyle McEntee:

Well, I think as a judge, you're choosing your moments. And I want to talk a little bit about when you were in law school and you chose your moment on something that was pretty monumental. Can you kind of take us back to the events you were a part of at Vermont Law School?

Alex Manning:

I'm assuming you're talking about Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Actually, it was Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Harass. Nobody ever puts the other in there. First, we let the military come there. And then we let them come, but they couldn't be at the school.

Kyle McEntee:

And we're talking now the mid-2000s, where there is pressure on universities to not let the military on campus?

Alex Manning:

Right. So we made them sit at the bank. We just didn't let them come on the campus. So they're like, OK, if you're not going to do that, we're going to pull some federal funding. So a lot of the bigger universities started pulling out. Vermont stuck to it. So they said, all right, we're going to have this teaching. We'll let everybody talk about it. We're going to be real open. Some people came to me and they said, we're in the military. Hey, yeah, I was in the military. Well, you want to talk? I was like, what do I mean? Why? Well, we had Grethe Cammermeyer come to the school. She was a colonel that was kicked out of the military for being gay. And I went and picked her up at the airport. And I was like, Colonel, we're driving back. And she's you're in the military. So, yes, I was. And it went from there. I'm sorry. It's kind of tough. So we had this teaching. Colonel Cammermeyer spoke. When they asked me to speak, I had to stand up. I just stood up and said it. Because Colonel Cammermeyer said, what's at the bottom of your DD-214? Honorable. She said the long form. I was like, dang it. She knows about the long form. So I stood up in front of about 250 people, classmates. You knew everybody. And I never told anybody. My family didn't know. Nobody knew. And when I said it out loud, it was empowering.

Kyle McEntee:

You were honorably discharged. But then on the long form, it gave the reason. And what was the reason on the long form?

Alex Manning:

Failure to adapt to military standards. I fought very hard for that. Some people were seen walking out of a bar. It was one of our friends that got kicked out. And, you know, they get this picture and they call you and they go, what is this? Who is that? I'm like, I don't know. They're like, what about this? I said, that ain't me. It's this right here. I said, that ain't me. It's like, no, I'm not going down without a fight. So it was real freeing. When I said there, I got a lot of support. And then it was overturned.

Kyle McEntee:

There's a little bit of irony in that given the policy was don't ask, don't tell, right? You asked, you told, and you're part of a movement, that collectively between you and countless other people, it's hard to imagine a public issue that has gone to done such an about face over the last 20 years. And I know we're maybe trending in not the best direction right now, but that's a trend that's starting from a better place than could have been imagined 20 years ago when you were on that college campus being brave.

Alex Manning:

Right. And of course, I'm a judge, so I don't have a professional opinion about anything, Republican, Democrat, or anything like that. And this is just me as a person. It was tough.

Kyle McEntee:

Because you are a judge, you can't wait into politics, but at the same time, you're still a person. How do you tow that line? Or is it not that hard to tow because the things in front of you just are inherently not political?

Alex Manning:

Yeah, they're not. I mean, they're just people. But yeah, I mean, politics are politics. Whatever's going to happen is going to happen. There's nothing you can do. And it just seems like so many folks are getting just really angry. And besides the position that we hold, not being able to do it, it's kind of a relief, you know, not having to get into those conversations or anything like that. So it's not that hard. It feels better. It's a little freeing. And of course, if you do have an opinion one way or the other, you talk about it with your spouse or your close friends. And I mean, it's good not to have to talk about politics or worry or say, I don't have a position. The law is the law. It's red or it's blue, but it's the law.